Talk:AquaMage2459/Secrets Best Left Forgotten...
Fussy's feedback Since we're using the canoe to the Ritual Site Cavern, The Tale of the Muspah must be a requirement. As for The World Wakes, if you need the World Guardian powers to escape the prison under Entrana, make it a requirement - otherwise add a prayer/divination requirement. Probably best to add The Dig Site or The Temple at Senntisten. The monks' password seems a bit silly - if you can carry the note with you to the Blue Moon Inn, there is no point in introducing the password in the first place, since you don't have to remember it or anything. The riddle that leads you to the inn suffices, I think. Good introduction to the quest, gives it a nice, eerie atmosphere. Replace "Infernia" with "Pandemonium" - that's a fancy-sounding name that Saradominist demon slayers would use to sound educated. (Mod Jack's opinion - I agree with it) Konrad wouldn't say "Forinthry". Okay, the part in the HQ was interesting - it basically set the mood for the rest of the quest. However, it was, essentially, only dialogue. Therefore the next section should be something that *the player* does. The problem, however, is that you go to Grüfeld and walk to the Wilderness until you encounter some Zamorakians. First, it wouldn't be very fair to cram all of his optional dialogue in that tiny frame between meeting him at the monastery and encountering the Zamorakians. Second, it's very hard to find the right balance between Grüfeld handholding you to the Zamorakians and aimlessly wandering the Wildy for hours. Therefore I would suggest to do the section a little bit differently. For instance, once you arrive at the monastery, the camera rotates to show you footsteps heading into the Wilderness. Seeing that Grüfeld hasn't arrived yet, you decide to follow them. Then you'd have to follow the trail (hunter requirement) until encountering the archer and the mercenary together, speaking. Your character then exclaims that you should probably go back and get Grüfeld or something and you go back to do so. You tell him what you saw and he asks if you have any more questions (allowing you to ask stuff about the order) and agree to accompany you. Once you reach the Zamorakians again, you hide behind a tree/rock/whatever and get to stalky-stalk them. Thoughts? I'd personally scrap Zemouregal entirely from the quest - both the reference to and battle against him. Mahjarrat are pretty overused anyway and cameo appearances don't really work for them. Also, the Mahjarrat wanting to achieve godhood is a terrible cliché. As for learning about Pazuzu, to avoid another long talking scene in the headquarters, maybe have Konrad suggest to consult Varrock Museum, Mazchna or the Dagon'hai or something. His backstory is great - maybe add that he "is said to have spawned from the hellfire of Pandemonium itself" or something like that. I had another idea actually; what if you somehow involved the (in)famous Saradominist demonologist Ellamar? Konrad could say that they used to have a book about Pazuzu (which is why it sounds familiar), but it was taken years ago by an "adventurer wearing a blue paper hat" and you are going to have to search for the book in the Wise Old Man's house. It would be a tome on Pazuzu written by Ellamar and you'd return it to Konrad (he'd give it back to you "in case you need it", so you can still find it in your POH bookcase). The book would also mention Constantius, from whose life Ellamar had learnt a lot. But I'll leave that to your discretion. Saranthium part is brilliant. However, asking Savant about more information seems silly - she'd have told you rather than have you search the entire library. She could, for example, however, suggest that you seek the information in the Temple of Paterdomus, since the order of monks who lived there would keep records on important Saradominists. A small book on Constantius could then be found in the temple's library (from In Aid of the Myreque). This book might also reveal some more about Pazuzu. You could then contact Savant with your commorb for her to suggest to go to the abbey. I'll continue later. Fswe1 12:00, July 4, 2014 (UTC) Bit with Sire and the chaos druids is excellent. One tiny thing though is that you have more than just a connection to the Temple Knights: you are an acolyte and have helped stop Lucien, Mother Mallum, Magis, Lensig, Dellagar and Grayzag. Maybe she could refer to your actions during The Void Stares Back as the reason to trust you? Also, she could probably also mention "that vile Perien" or something along those lines as one of the causes of the anti-Zamorakian sentiment in the world. It's impossible to have all your equipment stored in a chest outside the cell. One should always be able to temporarily quit a quest, and someone might want to leave whilst in the jail cell. Obviously, they shouldn't have to leave their items behind... Escaping the prison with thieving & divination then evading the guardians with sq'irk mechanics sounds good. Then you find a room with more cells, where you encounter Incommodo. The guardians refusing to help the Warden makes little sense, since he probably has control over them and they're robots anyway (at least, the ones guarding your cell were), without free will. Maybe instead of refusing to help their master, Incommodo would cast a curse upon them from a distance, destroying them, to which the Warden would call the other back and eventually stop summoning them altogether. For the same reasons, the part where you can have the guardians decide what to do with the warden won't really work. I'd make the options 'kill', 'imprison' and 'let go'. Why is there a puzzle room and a room where you free Zebub...after you've freed Zebub? I'd just stick with the shackles and dart launchers and holy waters. Also, the part where the spiritual guardians storm inside is probably a bad idea - you might not have enough supplies left from the fight with the warden, who isn't around to command his troops anyway. Also, why would Zebub teleport you? That makes Incommodo useless. I'd recommend taking Zebub to Incommodo after freeing him, who would teleport the two of you away, while staying behind and disintegrating himself, his mission being complete (or he comes along, I dunno). I'd not mention Zaros or Chthonians and Avernic. Just have Zebub say he was the second-in-command under Duke Sucellus (for example - so long as it isn't Ceres) and that he originates from the Infernal Dimensions/Infernus, where he had "masters". Eventually he rose in the hierarchy, etc etc etc, and become a tribune in the army of the Empty Lord. Battle of Entrana part is good. I like the scroll with the riddle, but it's wrong, unfortunately. Canifis/Kharyrll/Cave Canem and the Salve were in Zarosian/Zamorakian territory, so the river wasn't the border... I do like the location however; south of the Polypore Dungeon. Maybe have Constantius say something like "bla bla bla shall eternally watch over my lord's lands bla bla where water and sand, mountain and swamp meet bla bla bla" Would probably omit the Wand of Resurrection completely. It makes little sense for Saradomin to appear/give the wand to Konrad or Owen "lending" him the wand, really. It would probably clash with Mod Stu's plans as well. There isn't really any space west of Ghorrock. There could be an expansion north of Trollweiß though. Also, the players should probably find out that they need ropes or grappling hooks too. "you will discover that the main entrance to the fortress is blocked by snow and ice, so you need to break in another way. Once you get inside the fortress," - er...details? :P The conversation with the wraith is great. Instead of the wand, I'd use a unique potion to revive Constantius, cryptically mentioned in the tome. Alternatively, a sign/ring of life or something. From here on it's good, I'll give feedback for the Wilderness scenes later. In advance, I'd advise to scrap the choice between Godless/Saradominists etc. and remove the boss fight with Kara Meir. IMO the choice serves no purpose and only makes the player feel very uncomfortable. You've been helping various organisations and stopping Pazuzu throughout the entire quest - you should just remain vanguard for the Armadomingodless alliance, without any choices. Fswe1 11:14, July 6, 2014 (UTC) Aqua's feedback on Fussy's feedback The Tale of the Muspah was not initially added as a requirement, because I considered adding multiple possible paths how to travel to the fortress, one involving a pathway with Agility requirement and another including a sleigh-ride from the top of Trollweiss Mountain. I'll be adding it as a requirement, nonetheless. The whole Entrana Dungeon part is still under work and is still subject to change, but I guess I'll be adding a Divination requirement over the World Wakes. The Dig Site will be added as a requirement though, so that it makes sense that the player talks about the ruins of Saranthium. The monks' password thing was originally going to be something akin to 'travel to place x, knock the door thrice and say the password'. I'd like to keep the password and the riddle, just to hammer it down that the situation is so dire that the Demon Slayers are pretty paranoid at this point. I guess I can change it, though. Okay, the wilderness being referred as Forinthry by Konrad and to a lesser extent by other Demon Slayers was an oversight and Infernia was suggested by Any-Sao, probably to add yet another version for the name of the Demon Realm. I'll change those two. The feedback and suggestion about the Wilderness segment is great. I never thought about the hand-holding aspect of that segment. The feedback you provided is baffling. I will incorporate this to the quest, if I can. You do bring up valid points about Zemouregal's involvement in the quest, and come to think of it, it kind of devalues other quests Zemouregal is in. I would like to note that the fact that Zemouregal wants to ascend to godhood is not talked about in quest, only implied, and from what we know, he only wants Pazuzu in order to get yet another lackey and if we go chronologically, to replace Arrav. But since I am running out of Zamorakian enemies to fight (so far the Dagon'hai, Dark Warriors, Black Knights, Enakhra, General Khazard and the not-so-dead Nezikchened, Delrith and Chronozon have been dropped out from the battle segments: only the Zamorak Warbands and K'ril Tsutsaroth remain), and I really need more encounters in the Wilderness, Zemouregal will probably stay unless you can come up with something else. The feedback and suggestion about introducing Pazuzu to the quest is great. I have considered involving Reldo in this part of the quest: say, we could go ask for him about the book, just like in the old times. Who exactly is Ellamar? I haven't heard of her before, and the Wiki does not mention her. Who is she supposed to be? Otherwise, that path could work too. The suggestion about Savant is great. I will probably use that. I'd rather not have the quest tied with too many grandmaster quest storylines, and having the Void Stares Back involved in the quest seems like attempting to have as many quests adden to this quest's requirements as possible. I will probably use the Perien reference, though. Good point about the chest. The idea was that once you get your stuff back (which should not be a hard thing to do, seeing that you will learn quickly how to open your door and you could consider it a cutscene), you can leave any time you want. I will probably remove it, then. The feedback about the boss battle and the guardians disobeying the Warden makes sense. I will do the changes and replace with Incommodo, though it does not explain why the Warden would stop using guardians as disposable cannon-fodder against you. I can remove the choice of letting the guardians to decide his fate. The two puzzle rooms are the two alternatives I have for the final puzzle room. I guess I'll use the holy water - dart launcher - shackles one. You make a good point with the spiritual guardians, although the idea I had with them is that since the spiritual guardians are supposed to obey orders they were given millennia ago, they are not bound to their leader and can work without a leader, and since releasing Zebub's shackles sends a one more alert for the guardians, in order to stop Zebub from escaping. That part where Zebub teleports you away was that Incommodo cannot really take much damage at his fragile lich form and since Zebub is a powerful demon, he could teleport you three away. I can change that though: My intention with Incommodo is that he would stay alive after the quest, and that he might join with Zebub and Sire in the final battle. I do not really want to kill off characters I introduced in one quest, so no disintegration for him. It sounds very cool, though, and explains the robes set reward. While I can understand why Zebub would not mention Zaros or refer to him as the Empty Lord, I see no reason why Zebub would not talk about Chthonians and Avernic. The quest deals with demons, so to me it would make sense that the Demon Slayers and the demons themselves talk openly about the demons as multiple races, so unless you give good reasoning why this should be changes, I will probably keep it. I should probably note that the Zamorakian invasion happened near the very end of the God Wars, maybe twenty or thirty years before the Wilderness was created, so borders had changed so that they resembled the modern borders quite a lot: Zamorak and vampyres had the areas east of Salve while Saradomin had areas west of Salve. Constantius also swore that the forces of Zamorak would never lay their foot west of Salve as long as he would be looking over them. He probably meant that this would be the last time Zamorakians would attempt to attack Saranthium (and to be honest, it was: I plan to add a mention to the quest that Saranthium was destroyed by the Dragonkin at the start of the Fourth Age). You bring a valid point about the Wand of Resurrection, and when I think about it, writing it out of the quest seems like a good idea. The unique potion or a sign/ring of life sounds a bit... cliché. I'd prefer using something more unique and what actually makes sense and fits to the over-all theme of the quest. When I said that the fortress was west of Ghorrock, I did mean the area north of Trollweiß currently covered by sea. You would walk to it from the same area from which you can walk to Ritual Site Caverns and Ghorrock. While the requirement for a rope or a grappling hook could be added, they serve as an annoyance for most players, as you have to run to your bank and back. Perhaps I could make it so that you could search the area around the coastline right before the cliff to the fortress for junk you could use to make a flimsy, makeshift grappling hook? I forgot about that transition part: the quest release was already postponed after I . In essence, after you find out that the main entrance is blocked, you would have to search around the fortress for an entrance in a similar fashion to Temple at Senntisten, climbing up and down the outer walls. When you do wind up finding an entrance to the fortress, you venture down into the building, and the quest continues. My intention with the choice was that since you learn during the quest that #1 Zamorakians are not that bad people as you are lead to think and Zebub and the 'good' Zamorakians are coming to deal with Pazuzu anytime soon and #2 Constantius is a capital A jerk, a tad insane and cannot be trusted, you would begin to doubt whether it is a smart move to blindly side with the Armadomingodless alliance. But yeah, it does make sense that you stay as the vanguard through out the quest, especially since the Zamorakians in question are the more antagonistic ones, and why would Saradominists want to reward a betrayer? A betray would also hinder your chances of advancing anywhere in the Temple Knights. However, the plan was this: at the final battle, you get to choose whether you fight for the Armadomingodless alliance or the Zamorakians, and the battle before Pazuzu would change to reflect this, with you fighting the members of the opposing side. If you choose to help Zamorakians, Pazuzu is gracefully lifted from the lava by the mages casting the ritual, so that Zamorakians could persuade him to join with them. If you side with Armadomingodless alliance, the mages responsible for the ritual are stopped and the alliance thinks that Pazuzu is trapped for now, but Pazuzu blasts through the ground anyways and crawls from the lava with his claws. AquaMage2459 (talk) 21:38, July 11, 2014 (UTC)AquaMage2459 :Since the Dark Warriors have a fortress in the Wilderness, a champion of theirs could make for a nice substitute for the Zemouregal fight. I'd make them an archer, but that's up to you. :Ellemar is the author of the demonic tome from Shadow of the Storm - see twitter. :) :According to Jack, the demon slayers have absolutely no idea of the difference between or the existence of Chthonians and Avernic and just regard all demons as, well, "demons". Zebub will know of course, but him mentioning it would probably only confuse players since it wouldn't be explained thoroughly. And if it would, that would devalue Palkeera's memory. I'd leave the explicit names "Chthonian" and "Avernic" out (the Tsutsaroth tribe is probably fine) personally, but again, it's your quest. :Saranthium destroyed by the Dragonkin - brilliant! I'd be careful with the word "dragonkin" though - maybe use something like "terrible fire-breathing vultures" instead. But that's an absolutely brilliant theory - mind if I turned it into a forum thread? (all credit'd go to you of course! :P) :Having to run back to your bank was my intention when I suggested the rope + grappling hook. Prepared questers who'd brought it would be rewarded, and other players would have to go get it. IMO a quest always needs to require items that you will most likely not have on you. :So long as it doesn't affect more than a cutscene or some dialogue, the choice is fine. Be careful not to make it a faction choice like in TWW or MPD though, as Mod Osborne promised we wouldn't get those anymore and only get choices on a per-faction basis without that choice influencing your status in other factions. :I'll probably give feedback on the final part tomorrow (I'd forgotten about it to be frank, sorry), but in general it's looking great. Fswe1 09:24, July 12, 2014 (UTC) ::One question: are the Dark Warriors seperate organization from the Kinshra? According to what Any-Sao told me, they are more or less the same, which means that I am unable to use them in the quest, as the Black Knights have sided with Zebub and his forces. If they are indeed seperate organizations, I will definately use them. ::Thanks for the information about Ellemar. Yep, I will be using that. ::While it makes sense that the Demon Slayers do not know that, I feel that if Zebub does not mention the Avernic and the Chthonians, it makes the whole conversation with him very cringy. He could mention that the term 'demon' is an umberella term for all beings from Infernus, of which the most important ones are the Avernic demons, which consists of three tribes: the Tsutsaroth, in which he belongs, and the weaker Alyaroth and Byzroth; and the Chthonians, a race of eldritch demons that had enslaved the Avernic demons. ::If you want to turn the concept of Dragonkin being responsible of the destruction of Saranthium into a forum thread, go for it. I have way too many writing projects and forum threads under the work anyways, so if I'd attempt to write a forum thread like that, it would take months before I have managed to release it. For instance, among other things, I am currently writing a thread similar to ~The Story of Brassica Prime~ of yours but with the Camel God. ::But to be honest, it also makes sense that the Dragonkin attacks and the sudden destruction of Saranthium are linked: I consider the Dragonkin attacks at the beginning of the Fourth Age being the reason why the Third Age civilizations and settlements outside the Wilderness were destroyed (unless, of course, the destruction caused by the Stone of Jas covered the entire continent, and the Wildernes was the only place that did not recover). I'd assume mortals did not stop fighting for their gods after their banishment and kept the war on for a few years. The Dragonkin attacks destroyed pretty much all settlements of with a few exception, like Prifddinas, Sanguinesti Region, Ghorrock and Sophanem/Menaphos (which all by the way happen to be at the borders of the known world and thus safe from the rage of the dragonkin which was focused at the central regions). The Dragonkin attacks are also the reason why humans and other races abandoned their settlements and became wandering nomads. ::I guess you're right. I'll see if I can add somethinglike that to the quest. ::I find your reply about that last part pretty confusing. I assume it is about the choice on your loyalties before fighting Pazuzu, but I might be wrong here. I'd appretiate if you'd clear it up a bit. ::AquaMage2459 (talk) 17:52, July 12, 2014 (UTC)AquaMage2459 :::The Kinshra and Dark Warriors have ties as of WGS, but nothing suggests they are the same. In fact the tormented wraith isn't quite a fan of them. What was Any-Sao's source? :::Feel free to have Zebub explain demon species briefly, it'd certainly make sense, but IMO it would devalue Mahjarrat Memories. But do as you please. :) :::Well, there will be no more choices where you have to choose one person/faction/god out of many. You will only get choices on a per-god basis, i.e. "Will you support or hinder X?" with no relation to other factions/gods at all. Therefore choosing between factions with the anti-Zamorakian alliance and the Zamorakians themselves would not be possible. A choice like "help Constantius kill Pazuzu" or "help Zebub protect Pazuzu" could work, so long as the faction you didn't choose doesn't think less of you for it. Fswe1 18:29, July 12, 2014 (UTC) Feedback pt III It would probably be best to only have the Zamorakian warband and the Dark Warrior champion/"Zemouregal" before reaching Pazuzu, and substitute the Zilyana/Kara-Meir battle with the K'ril battle. Otherwise there would be too much combat in this section and the player would have to bank often. This way the choice is omitted as well. Moldark? What would a fat, bald preacher be doing there? The cutscene and subsequent Pazuzu boss fight seem excellent - I'd only be able to point out any flaws by actually playing it, which, of course, I can't. On paper it's brilliant. Mission debriefing should probably take place in Falador or Edgeville. If the quest, and thus the instance, ended in the Wilderness, then, well... :P "Bringing 'dead' characters from Armies of Gielinor back and telling their stories" - well, that certainly was a succes "Creating an old-school type of quest with a similar epic feeling as While Guthix Sleeps: lots of travelling, puzzles, combat and lore" - I'd really enjoy playing this quest "Bringing quest content to Wilderness" - not quite the Summer quests, but it makes very good use of the Wilderness in its current context "Deconstructing the usual 'Saradominists good, Zamorakians evil' setting the game takes by taking the over-arching theme of 'nothing is how it seems to be'" - *thumbs up* Remove the access to the Temple Knight Library reward. I don't think they would like a mere Proselyte sneaking around down there, especially since there aren't any new books to read or anything. Why is there no Divination xp among the rewards? Also, why a Slayer lamp instead of normal xp? Not sure what the purpose of the level 83 lamp is to be frank... The rewards seem great, if not perhaps a little too generous. Then again, Jagex seem to be giving a lot of quest rewards lately, so.. Anyway, excellent quest! Fswe1 12:33, July 13, 2014 (UTC)